a relatively harmless post on Richard Lomas' blog turned into a hefty discussion about the value of tramway enthusiasts in term of the photographic fraternity as opposed to museum volunteers and even paid staff.
This is how it all started:
From the comments on Richard Lomas' blog wrote:
Grrrrrrrr said...
Our trams are priceless antiques, not toys for overgrown boys! We shouldn't have sent them to Blackpool in the first place they are just too precious.
7/10/10 18:03
Andrew said...
In response to 'Grrrr' - does the same apply to the equally valuable historic trams from Beamish, Heaton Park & Birkenhead, all of which ran in Blackpool a lot more successfully than the TMS cars did? The Crich fleet are no more special than other preserved trams elsewhere and I think its absurd to suggest that they need extra protection. In any case, plenty of defects occur at Crich - does that mean that the 'priceless antiques' should not run full stop? I dare say if all historic trams were treated thus, a lot of enthusiasts would lose interest completely and then where would we be!?
8/10/10 12:22
Anonymous said...
Yes all the trams should be wrapped in cotton wool ans stored in a sealed climate control environment away from people so that no damage can ever come to them.
The fact that no one will ever be able to see them, ride on them and appreciate them is immaterial.
8/10/10 18:15
Anonymous said...
at Andrew
I have the answer to your question 'if all historic trams were treated thus, a lot of enthusiasts would lose interest completely and then where would we be!?'
Answer: A lot better off!
9/10/10 08:45
Anonymous said...
A lot better off without enthusiasts!! Hmmm, pretty much sums up the attitude of certain people at Crich! Maybe that explains why, at the 'Blackpool' event in August there was plenty of donkey rides, sandcastle building etc and no effort to extract any of the stored Blackpool cars for display. Families = money - fair enough but why neglect the enthuasist? Had 712, 4 and 49 been on display I would have attended the event. As it was, I left the donkey riding fraternity to it and rode on trams in Blackpool instead.
11/10/10 13:03
Andrew said...
So Crich would be 'a lot better off' without enthusiasts? Good grief, I've read some strange things on this blog but that one takes the biscuit! OK, no enthusiasts at Crich, so let's consider the following points:
*Who will crew the trams and operate the museum? I doubt Joe Bloggs and family will want to volunteer, after all they only come for a fun day out.
*Who will fund tram restorations and the development of the museum? Again, the people who come for the woodland walk and donkey rides aren't going to raise £250k or whatever is being quoted to restore a tram these days. Without enthusiasts to fund restorations and overhauls you'd ultimately end up with a static museum that the public would find boring, hence visitor numbers will dry up and Crich will die!
*As has been said before, enthusiasts often spend big bucks on models, books etc. in the gift shop so even if they get free admission they still help to fund the museum in other ways.
*Indeed, without enthusiasts Crich wouldn't even exist as it was the enthusiast community who built the place from nothing without outside help. Now, it seems that it is a small group of pompous individuals who are killing it off by scaring off anyone who dares to criticise the TMS, or whose face doesn't fit the bill.
Frankly attitudes like this towards enthusiasts are becoming far too common, and the lack of interest in catering for the very people who could keep the Museum alive by donating money, volunteering etc. is frankly disgusting. At this rate soon I'll stop visiting Crich altogether, which I suppose would be great news for some. I can have much more fun at Heaton Park or Beamish where enthusiasts are welcomed with open arms - heck, even Blackpool are more welcoming and that is ultimately a public transport system!
12/10/10 13:05
Paul said...
@ Andrew
"Who will crew the trams and operate the museum? I doubt Joe Bloggs and family will want to volunteer, after all they only come for a fun day out."
Now let me think......how do Beamish or the Black Country Museum or Blists Hill operate? Hang on...they use paid staff. Crich is unusual in museum circles in using so many volunteers.
"Who will fund tram restorations and the development of the museum? Again, the people who come for the woodland walk and donkey rides aren't going to raise £250k or whatever is being quoted to restore a tram these days. Without enthusiasts to fund restorations and overhauls you'd ultimately end up with a static museum that the public would find boring, hence visitor numbers will dry up and Crich will die!"
Really - so how is it that the NRM hasn't died? It's a static museum, and yet it's the most visited museum outside London......
"As has been said before, enthusiasts often spend big bucks on models, books etc. in the gift shop so even if they get free admission they still help to fund the museum in other ways."
Really - and precisely how much do you think the Museum makes on these models, books etc? Answer - precious little.
"Indeed, without enthusiasts Crich wouldn't even exist as it was the enthusiast community who built the place from nothing without outside help. Now, it seems that it is a small group of pompous individuals who are killing it off by scaring off anyone who dares to criticise the TMS, or whose face doesn't fit the bill.
Frankly attitudes like this towards enthusiasts are becoming far too common, and the lack of interest in catering for the very people who could keep the Museum alive by donating money, volunteering etc. is frankly disgusting. At this rate soon I'll stop visiting Crich altogether, which I suppose would be great news for some. I can have much more fun at Heaton Park or Beamish where enthusiasts are welcomed with open arms - heck, even Blackpool are more welcoming and that is ultimately a public transport system!"
Really - so how much do you contribute to the Museum by volunteering? Or do you just come, as so many do, purely to wave your camera about whilst the rest of us keep the place running? Frankly, the biggest source of trouble is from enthusiasts that want everything to run for them and are quick to criticise when something isn't done to please them. We are supposed to be a professional museum, run for the benefit of the general public, to educate and inform them about this particular aspect of their history. We are not a toybox for the enthusiast just to come and take pictures of his or her favourite tram. And furthermore, if the enthusiats are 'the very people who could keep the Museum alive by donating money', please explain why we are posting a deficit each year....
The Museum would indeed be better off without many of the 'enthusiasts' that Crich currently has - from Board level downwards. Perhaps then we could start running a professional Museum that actually does what it is supposed to do.
13/10/10 18:55
Baffled Observer said...
Putting aside the somewhat bizzare series of postings above, and returning to the original Blog post, would Richard care to detail how the TMS and it's officers have displayed 'arrogance' in relation to this project?
The bustle and bluster seems to be created by blog sites and internet forums (which leads to some of the truly bizare stuff above) rather than the society itself.
Those within the society who are sniping, including Richard, really ought to be ashmed of the diservice they do to their fellow members and officers who I've no doubt have been trying extremely hard on their behalf.
14/10/10 00:21
Christoph said...
@ Paul:
From your comment I gather that you would like the museum to become a static museum run by paid staff only. Is that correct?
In order to save Richard the hassle of moderating all the comments and to allow a quicker conversation, may I invite you round to the forum: tmscrich.iphpbb.com or click on my name.
Christoph
14/10/10 10:40
Andrew said...
To answer some of Paul's needlessly aggressive reply to my comments:
*You say that Crich is not doing well financially, so employing paid staff to do the work of volunteers as Beamish do is clearly not an option.
*Comparing Crich to the National Railway Museum is pointless. For a start there is far more interest in steam locos than there will ever be in trams and the visitor numbers reflect that. Secondly, the NRM is in a city. Thirdly, admission to the NRM is free!
*If items such as models, books etc. don't bring in money then why stock them at all? I find it hard to believe that the TMS would sell these items if it wasn't benefitting them, but am willing to be proved wrong if anyone has some figures.
*My comment about enthusiasts being essential to keeping the Museum alive still stands true. Without donations from enthusiasts who support the TSO, LCCTT etc. there would be no funds to support overhauls or new acquisitions.
*Finally, you're absolutely right in saying that I don't support the Museum. Why? Because UK tram preservation doesn't end with the TMS. I have recently supported Heaton Park and the Brighton 53 group, who need help even more than Crich as both are running on a shoestring budget yet seem to have far more ambition and drive to succeed than Crich have. When I visit Crich I always see and hear volunteers being treated like rubbish, whereas elsewhere they are treasured, as are people who donate money. I don't want to give my time and money and get a load of abuse for my efforts. Yes there are some very nice people at Crich but not enough to get me there, and anyway I like helping 'the little guys'! People need to realise that tram enthusiasts aren't obliged to support Crich, there are other preservation groups out there and they all need help, so please respect the fact that people are free to make their own choices of which deserve their support the most.
Regards,
Andrew.
14/10/10 13:01
Now, what do you make out of that? (And yes, I will format is all a bit nicer at some time in the not too distant future.)
Regards
Christoph